| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
2984
   |
Posted - 2016.10.11 10:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Unfortunately as expected. The new structures are inferior to existing solutions, not so much because of invulnerability but because raising the bar for setup and operation to be only profitable if resources are shared ... which will "nicely" be compensated by the system index. 
... but maybe I should be happy, since NPC station building becomes more competitive with this ... until they nerf it to the ground if the new structures get ignored.
As was with broker fee, raising the entrance barrier and operational effort for an activity while maintaining benefits of anti-social behavior (e.g. index) in game, is unlikely helping player happiness and retention. This just splits the player base further in rich no-lifers / power blocs and poor casuals / small groups ... but maybe this is the plan, to milk more RL money from those casuals.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
2990
|
Posted - 2016.10.12 10:15:39 -
[2] - Quote
There is the index most people know about, which determines cost of jobs, based on the number and value of jobs in system. And there is the fixed index multiplier (e.g. 0.95) which will be applied to the index for each station (not POS, not EC) with the respective facility in system.
Hence, systems with a large number of NPC stations with facilities get a bonus to the index. But the index value itself scales with the number of chars actually doing stuff in system. There was no change in mechanics in this regard, ECs will just behave the same way as starbases do today.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3008
|
Posted - 2016.10.13 12:44:57 -
[3] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:
as well as opening up the market to smaller players who want to get into it.
Unless CCP forces us all to use the new structures, like they did with traders, by making NPC station production generally unprofitable ... otherwise I will be happy continuing using those with less competition, as I don't care much about a couple of percentage ME gain, and the TE is irrelevant for my playstyle.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3008
|
Posted - 2016.10.13 15:45:19 -
[4] - Quote
Messenger Of Truth wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Arronicus wrote:
as well as opening up the market to smaller players who want to get into it.
Unless CCP forces us all to use the new structures, like they did with traders, by making NPC station production generally unprofitable ... otherwise I will be happy continuing using those with less competition, as I don't care much about a couple of percentage ME gain, and the TE is irrelevant for my playstyle. The introduction of these engineering complexes *is* effectively a nerf across the board to POS and NPC stations as the market will adjust to the prices people can build at. Looking at ME, POS and NPC stations are now 1.6% and 3.6% less competitive than the hisec optimal (in contrast to 0% and 2% less competitive right now).
Not sure how you come to that conclusion ... the consensus is that ECs will make production more costly compared to POS and Outpost, so prices shall rise ... making NPC station production relatively more profitable if not changed. Right?
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3011
|
Posted - 2016.10.14 07:53:11 -
[5] - Quote
Well, you say everything is fine and scales, because you can use other people's facilities to compensate for the higher fuel and installation costs ... but why would somebody sane invite competitors who wreck the costs in that system?
There is a fundamental difference in how Citadels react to scale compared to EC. More people using citadel services -> better for everybody. More people using EC -> worse for everybody.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3014
|
Posted - 2016.10.14 17:53:16 -
[6] - Quote
Assuming there are a lot of public ECs anchored ... otherwise a few worth considering will attract more people than from just one system, so better keep it closed circle ...
... and you say already 75% increase in jobs will push the index by 1% point ... this the difference between one and two chars doing production ...
Well, let's see what happens, new profits will be there as always if the environment is complex ... and hope it's not too tedious and kills the fun playing.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3018
|
Posted - 2016.10.14 20:22:29 -
[7] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:
... and you say already 75% increase in jobs will push the index by 1% point ... this the difference between one and two chars doing production ...
No, that's the difference between 3% and 4%, not the amount to bump it by 1% at any value, so that would only be true if one character were sufficient to hit 3% to begin with, which it generally isn't, afaict. It would be easier to calculate the thresholds with an approximate value for the total number of job-hours installed in the universe, but I don't know of anywhere that's available.
Ok, right. I'm not so familiar with the exact formula, but I see that my industry activity regularly bumps the index in my system by 0.5-1% point starting from a similar baseline. This correlates just too well with my pauses and vacations, to be pure coincidence.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3023
|
Posted - 2016.10.16 11:14:36 -
[8] - Quote
Nothing new, it's the same pattern we see since Citadel, play big or get out, or suck up to some landlord. The game becomes more and more polarized.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3033
|
Posted - 2016.10.19 22:39:57 -
[9] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Crius utterly failed to turn industry into a group endeavour, despite this clearly being one of the design goals. The new structures provide much better permissions and access control. It looks like CCP has decided this is the time to make another push away from solo industry and towards corp structures. I think this is a positive change on the whole. But it will certainly impact solo indy.
The problem IMO is, that production, like trading and most of PvE is better done solo ... simply because the payout does not scale with the number of people involved. Exceptions are Incursions (by design) and mining to some extent (fleet boosts, protection, hauler ...).
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3043
|
Posted - 2016.10.22 16:38:16 -
[10] - Quote
The point I want to make is, that the payout = profit of production is not scaling with more people involved. Say you produce one Sleipnir, then you can split the work between different people, doing invention, T1 and T2 production each in their specialist EC ... but finally you sell only one Sleipnir, and the market can absorb only a limited amount of Sleipnirs per time. So the profit from this one Sleipnir goes to 3 people now, but you can't just produce 3x the numbers to compensate ...
Hence the most efficient way will still be the solo industrialist with an army of alts.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3043
|
Posted - 2016.10.22 16:53:55 -
[11] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:The point I want to make is, that the payout = profit of production is not scaling with more people involved. Say you produce one Sleipnir, then you can split the work between different people, doing invention, T1 and T2 production each in their specialist EC ... but finally you sell only one Sleipnir, and the market can absorb only a limited amount of Sleipnirs per time. So the profit from this one Sleipnir goes to 3 people now, but you can't just produce 3x the numbers to compensate ...
Hence the most efficient way will still be the solo industrialist with an army of alts. You're conflating the production process and infrastructure ownership, and they are simply not the same thing. You can have your independent production process with shared infrastructure, just like you have independent ratting with shared infrastructure.
But that's not "playing together", that's just a passive renter relationship like we have for offshoring citadels to save costs.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
3043
|
Posted - 2016.10.22 18:51:29 -
[12] - Quote
I'm pessimistic, there will never be enough trust to build and mutually defend shared structures between otherwise independent entities. It will be either you have a big alliance / corp as backup or enough ISK to buy all the defense you need.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
| |
|